The Case FOR Glenn: Milo looks at the facts

[hyemew]

smashing said:

Oh, we know this, huh? Jesus, people. You'd think you guys were hanging out on the set.

Sorry smashing, but I don't think 8000 people (fine, exaggeration) can be wrong. I am not on the set but over the months here at the Cove we've heard from more than a couple people who HAVE been behind the scenes, starting with Grant at the very beginning. While they have all been kind to the Creators in not totally lambasting their various ineptitudes and airing problems publically, we've gotten more than a simple drift that Miles might just be a little overbearing and extremely protective of all decision making in LG15. This is not just my opinion but the opinion of quite a few people who have either had inside knowledge or have been a part of the inner circle at some time in its history and they have all been pretty consistent in what they say about what it's like to work with the Creators.

[Terryfic]

hyemew said:

terryfic said:

I was bother greatly by the idea that he was manipulating women into sexual debasing themselves because he had the power to do so. I think it is wrong when rockstars do it and it would have been wrong for Glenn to do it. If it turns out that this never happened then I think the ‘scandal’ was blown out of proportion.

Terry I have to disagree with you here. All the evidence is out there.

If you notice how I phrased things I did not say (or at least did not intend to say) that Glenn in fact did do these things. I have only read the second hand retelling of the story via the phorum. It seems that story was wrong. But I was saying that the idea of Glenn manipulation women was what bother me and not the idea that he was handing out clues.

smashing said:

I disagree with this premise even as a hypothetical. I think it's "blowing it out of proportion" to even characterize the allegations this way, let alone jump to conclusions. I don't see what power Glenn had over anyone. He had the answer to a friggin' puzzle. I don't care what he allegedly asked anyone to do. If they didn't want to do it, they didn't have to. You can call it inappropriate, but manipulating would mean against their will.
I'm not surprised that the phorum is locking threads if this is the direction of the discussion.
As for Glenn's work, I think it's a non-issue.

Just to clarify, by power I meant his status in these people’s minds – hence the rockstar comparison. Perhaps a second example will help illustrate what I was attempting to raise as my hypothetical complaint, my brother recently became an english professor and he has many young students more or less offering themselves to him because of their admiration of him. I feel to encourage people down that path is a form of manipulation as you do hold some power over them. Yes it is common place, but that doesn’t mean I won’t speak up against it whenever I see it happening (not that it did seem happen in this case)

And as for Glenn’s work I only referenced it in response to Milo’s article which closed on the idea that Glenn has improved the series.

[Smashing]

terryfic said:

Just to clarify, by power I meant his status in these people’s minds – hence the rockstar comparison. Perhaps a second example will help illustrate what I was attempting to raise as my hypothetical complaint, my brother recently became an english professor and he has many young students more or less offering themselves to him because of their admiration of him.

A student-teacher relationship isn't a proper analogy. A teacher can influence grades, something with real world consequences. As for a rock star getting play, that's just a benefit of being a rock star, not an abuse of power. Not unless the girl is underage, and that wasn't the allegation here either.

[Terryfic]

smashing said:

A student-teacher relationship isn't a proper analogy. A teacher can influence grades, something with real world consequences. As for a rock star getting play, that's just a benefit of being a rock star, not an abuse of power. Not unless the girl is underage, and that wasn't the allegation here either.

Ok, I’ll agree the student-teacher analogy is flawed. I think we just see things differently regarding a rock star using their fame to encourage woman to sleep with them as not a manipulation of said women. Maybe I’ve just been reading too much Mulvey lately. But as we have agreed that Glenn never did this it all seems kind of academic at this point.

As to whether he should stay apart of the show, I find it hard to see any reason for him not to. If all he did wrong was develop a fanbase who in turn constructed fairly elaborate fictional stories about his wrong doings then it is hard to fault him for that.

[milowent]

terryfic said:

As to whether he should stay apart of the show, I find it hard to see any reason for him not to. If all he did wrong was develop a fanbase who in turn constructed fairly elaborate fictional stories about his wrong doings then it is hard to fault him for that.

the dark underbelly of fan interaction, i suppose.

[gogo]

At the risk of being an outsider who is imposing herself on your discussion, please bear with my rambling thoughts about this latest situation (save the writer, save the show). I have to make a disclaimer that I feel picking one’s battles is an important virtue, but I am not battling, just sharing. In addition, I tend to be a very empathetic person who really does value kindness (at least publicly) over online flaming or fueling the fire, so I hope my missive is taken in the humble spirit in which is offered. (Or just skip over it, and move on…)

I want to say that I respect those of you who have decided to support a proper investigation into the recent allegations and to do their best to halt the mob-mentality and rapid sentencing in the court of public opinion. This respect comes from the fact that the person in question posted as a rather spiteful persona/sockpuppet at the forum. This persona was not very pleasant or supportive, often put people down with the glee of his laughing emoticon and accused others of doing many of the things that he was doing (I am in no way referring to the recent allegations, mind you).

I suppose it was nice of him to come here and address the concerns about his own public allegations of pedophilia against others weeks and weeks later; however, some people will not be able to separate Mr. Rubenstein from many of his past statements as his forum persona. I know it can be easy to post whatever one likes on the Internet (as I am forcibly demonstrating right now) regardless of the feelings of others, and many people even seem to enjoy creating conflicts or being ruthless and mean to people (or are drawn to the drama of reading conflicts and flame wars between others—and I have been guilty of this, myself).

For me, I am finding it difficult to want to put any extra energy toward someone who created a rather divisive and mean forum persona who openly put down, ridiculed and insulted many of the people who support this series. I am not at all saying that just because someone was a jerky poster on a forum that this justifies assumptions of guilt for such serious allegations. I guess it just makes me less concerned for the individual. Although he made no allegation of pedophilia against me, he was certainly thoughtless and mean-spirit in every interaction I had with him. I respect those of you who have shown the ability to put aside such issues and differences, all in the spirit of fairness, justice and this Internet series.

I know that in my day-to-day life, this situation does not affect me, my family, my mortgage or career, so I don’t want to imply that this is some major turning point in human morality or anything. However, in my mind, it does brings up larger questions about this lonelyworld as the kind of place that I choose to spend my free time: Does it really matter how people treat each other in this series’ community? Is talent more important than character? Just because it is not against the law to be mean, should people relish the ability to be mean? Because viewers seem easily disposable and replaceable, does that mean they deserve to be treated with little value?

I know that my opinions only matters to me, and I am not really interested in debating this issue (but I am willing to clarify anything or acknowledge opposing view points in a respectful manner) nor do I have any great desire to go on any further about this man. If I were perfect, perhaps I would be more judgmental in public, more confrontational to those with whom I disagree or maybe I would not worry about the feelings of others. I am just very aware of my many human flaws, and realize that my actions and words demonstrate my own character and need to have consequences that I can live with in order to sleep well at night. I guess it just comes down to the fact that law-breaking has/should have serious consequences in the world that investigators and courts should handle without a stir of public panic before facts are sorted out.

But does the series main message board have to reflect the other shortcomings of the larger world? In this small and rather inconsequential Breeniverse, an arena where interacting with people is supposed to play a major role, are qualities like ruthlessness, meanness and thoughtlessness, which are not crimes, instead become the expectations and norms that will be accepted and overlooked because when one unhappy viewer leaves, there is another fresh-faced, new viewer to take his/her place?

(PollyAnna-ish, I know, but I can’t help it… Like I said, feel free to skip over or refuse to dignify it with a response…what have you )

[Smashing]

Glenn, I have to say, no matter what happens in the future, that picture of you wearing a Batman t-shirt playing a keytar is pretty funny.

[lesbrent]

Scratching my head. Will respond later. Milo, have you really had access to all "evidence"? Are you sure bout that?

[milowent]

lesbrent said:

Scratching my head. Will respond later. Milo, have you really had access to all "evidence"? Are you sure bout that?

in the cacophony of everyone straining to be heard and noticed (and PM's flying everywhere), i believe i have seen most of the evidence. but, i don't see how i can be 100% sure. my inbox is open. i realize my position is probably causing some cognitive dissonance. i was pretty gleeful in one respect when the "scandal" broke last week because of the drama. but then i quickly realized it was either (1) truly terrible, or (2) super overblown. and the evidence points more and more to #2. i don't really care about the ARG shilling, i care about the main lg15 ship staying afloat.

which brings me to gogo's eloquent post ...

gogo said:

At the risk of being an outsider who is imposing herself on your discussion, please bear with my rambling thoughts about this latest situation (save the writer, save the show).

personally, i think every who is a member here should be entitled to weigh in, especially long term fans even if they weren't here before. i'd rather be flamed on this issue (which you didn't do) instead of disagreed with by silence.

... For me, I am finding it difficult to want to put any extra energy toward someone who created a rather divisive and mean forum persona who openly put down, ridiculed and insulted many of the people who support this series. ... he was certainly thoughtless and mean-spirit in every interaction I had with him. I respect those of you who have shown the ability to put aside such issues and differences, all in the spirit of fairness, justice and this Internet series

this is an important observation, and sad, really. what comes around, goes around. its' Glenns weakest thread. i just got fed-up with some of what's going around without intervention from the Creators. its the Creators decision, but I couldn't let unproven allegations control their decision. if he's being fired, i don't think we know the whole story about why.

Does it really matter how people treat each other in this series’ community?

Yes.

... Just because it is not against the law to be mean, should people relish the ability to be mean? Because viewers seem easily disposable and replaceable, does that mean they deserve to be treated with little value?

a lot of people involved with lg15 could be accused of these faults EXCEPT for yousef. glenn's are on display right now.

... I guess it just comes down to the fact that law-breaking has/should have serious consequences in the world that investigators and courts should handle without a stir of public panic before facts are sorted out.

True, exactly. You post about the guy sweeping cigarettes down the street from the school weighing in on allegations of abusive parents (i guess that was at the phorum) was excellent.
As was your post above.

SO, with due respect to all here, i perhaps restate my emphasis, while kindly acknowledging Glenn's faults

Friends, Covites, Phorumites, lend me your ears;
I come to bury Glenn, not to praise him.
The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interréd with their bones;
So let it be with Glenn. The noble Phorumites
Hath told you Glenn was a porn-freak and cheater:
If it were so, it was a grievous fault,
And grievously hath Glenn answer'd it.
Here, under leave of the Phorumites and the rest—
For the Phorumites are honourable men;
So are they all, all honourable men—
Come I to speak in Glenn's funeral.
He was my friend (though not really), faithful and just to me:
But the Phormites say he was a porn-freak and cheater,
And the Phorumites are honourable men.
He hath brought many viewers home to the Breeniverse
Whose ransoms did the general coffers fill:
Did this in Glenn seem ambitious?
When that the poor plot-addled fans have cried, Glenn hath wept:
A porn-freak cheater should be made of sterner stuff:
Yet the Phorumites say he was a porn-freak and cheater;
And the Phorumites are honourable men.
You all did see that on the "Bree Phone Home" day (Glenn's 1st script)
I thrice presented him a kingly crown of 4th Creator,
Which he did thrice refuse: was this ambition?
Yet the Phorumites say he was ambitious;
And, sure, the Phorumites are honourable men.
I speak not to disprove what the Phorumites spoke,
But here I am to speak what I do know.
You all (or many) did love Glenn once, not without cause:
What cause withholds you then, to mourn for him?
O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason. Bear with me;
My heart is in the coffin there with Glenn,
And I must pause till it come back to me.

----

man that original speech is pretty amazing ... i haven't read that since 7th grade.

[surrealisticpill]

i'd like to say that i'm glad milo has looked at the facts and decided to support Glenn. personally, i have enjoyed his contributions to the series.

as someone with some first hand knowledge of the allegations against Glenn, i can say that it has been spun out of control by speculations from ignorant parties. while his actions might have been somewhat inappropriate, Glenn didn't hurt anyone, and doesn't deserve to be publicly trashed or completely removed from the series. imho

jayhenry said:

And, the nastiest corner was always the OpAphid section of the forum.

as someone who mostly stayed in the OpAphid corner, i'm kinda surprised by this. i never knew we were percieved as nasty. sorry if we came across this way. most of us were very serious about the ARG and at times became frustrated with people who didn't do their homework.

[hyemew]

Just because it is not against the law to be mean, should people relish the ability to be mean? Because viewers seem easily disposable and replaceable, does that mean they deserve to be treated with little value?

I feel this can easily be attributed to the behavior of the Cs as well. We're just pawns in their wider game to begin with. You can't tell me there is still "investigating" going on. For all we know with their absense the Cs went to Atlantic City or something, they have been essentially not there for an entire week. They made an original statement, but from there speculation continued to run wild and unabated as moderators were left to pick up the slack and figure it out. To this day rumors that Glenn was already completely fired are still circulating, and instead of trying to quell it they have let them burn with their silence. We don't know what's going on behind the scenes, but for all we know there is an ulterior motive, because I can't fathom why else they'd let things go so out of control.

I mean the way I think about it, they had hired Glenn. When you are hired by a company, they provide you with insurance or you join a union for protection. As an employee, Glenn deserved equal protection from them, of which they have provided absolutely none. I mean think about it, at this point we are saying that from our vantage it appears Glenn has made no MAJOR breaches of ethics which would get in the way of his contribution to the main story, which appears to have been positive (I feel it is Miles & Greg who have really encorporated the ARG stories- I mean listen to the announces they've been making recently about getting it back up and running as soon as possible on the side. Anyone like Glenn who has REALLY had ARG experience would know you don't just 'do' an ARG, it requires a huge investment of time, money... they don't know what they're getting into!)
Meanwhile the only thing against Glenn is that "there might be MORE to this, some unknown and unamed people might have also had chats with them which the Creators have but are quiet about". Face it, everything that has surfaced is out there. If there is more, the Creators have it and aren't telling us. They are leaving us to even speculate about whether they DO have worse stuff on Glenn or not. They won't even settle that! It looks to me for whatever reason they are keeping this fire burning and haven't done ONE thing to settle anything. This "we are still gathering evidence" thing is crap, it's been a week already. The evidence HAS been gathered and you can find it on Milo's blog.

This isn't the same as Yousefgate, and Glenn has rubbed some people the wrong way, me included as everyone knows, but that doesn't mean he deserves to have his reputation destroyed based on some adult-to-adult dirty talk and the fact one drunk girl sent him a nude picture after proposing that idea herself.

[gogo]

Friends, Covites, Phorumites, lend me your ears;
...O judgment! Thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason. Bear with me;
My heart is in the coffin there with Glenn,
And I must pause till it come back to me.

Milo, yours is such a creative response to this situation. I wish I had something as clever to offer back. Antony's powerful speech is quite fitting; as is the tragedy of Caesar: the intrigue, misunderstandings, and assassination. However, I must admit that I found myself chuckling at the appropriateness of your version. (Oh Jeez, the Ides of March just passed on the 15th - ominous and appropriate...)

ETA: HyeMew, I would totally agree with that being a meanie doesn't justify a presumption of guilt. I do hope that the outcome is fair and reasonable. I wouldn't know what is going on behind the scenes, but I hope it is in the best interest of all involved.

[VanillaFlava]

Don't mind me guys, I am keeping my hands off this meta-drama. I am just chiming in, because I enjoyed Milo's images. Here is my (not so serious) entry:



Oh, and I do realise that for one individual involved this is a very serious matter However, just the hot air, the praise and the condemnation floating around all this is bordering on the pathological.

[glenn]

VanillaFlava,

I just had the sharpest attack of uncontrollable laughter...thank you for that.

As for my past phorum antics--I opened that account the same day I first visited the Cove. If you notice, the post history on it slows down considerably around the time my identity became public. Before that, I was living my online life under the same veil of psuedo-anonymity that most fans do. I am the first to admit that I let that influence the tone of my posts, and that this whole experience has, if nothing else, been a learning experience about how I conduct myself online. Before I never cared about the personal consequences as much as I did whether or not the post was funny.

And on that note--there are way too many BAD photographs from my seemingly-never-ending awkward years floating around the net. Sigh...

[gogo]

However, just the hot air, the praise and the condemnation floating around all this is bordering on the pathological.

VanillaFlava- "bordering on pathological?"


ETA: This isn't very fun for me, so I think I am going to quiet down for a while and let nature take its course. BTY-Thanks to all for welcoming me into your small community. Nice place.