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Post by milowent on Mar 19, 2007 1:28:38 GMT -5
well, i looked into this, and felt it's time to let the rumor-mongering stop before this guy turns into another Richard Jewel: Please read: milowent.blogspot.com/2007/03/railroaded-save-fourth-creator.htmlI'm not saying Glenn's perfect. And the bastard shouldn't edit his own wikipedia page. OH THE HORROR! But let's not be too hasty to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
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Post by curiousgeorge on Mar 19, 2007 5:02:51 GMT -5
I am willing to see how this plays out. I have commented previously that it would be horrible if the allegations were bogus and I stand by this.
I think the deleted posts at the phorum, without any explanation, were a terrible idea though. All that did is reinforce my perception that the c's had something to hide.
I would be a lot more supportive if he would post here and apologize (or at least explain) all the "stalker/pedophile" comments he made about us. I know he is reading these posts. So how about it Glenn?
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glenn
Anchor Cove New Resident
Posts: 10
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Post by glenn on Mar 19, 2007 6:09:13 GMT -5
Thank you for inviting me to clarify this matter, CuriousGeorge.
I would like to apologize if that comment offended anyone as it was not meant to be a personal attack or accusation (though I am sure at the time it could be inferred as such, and I doubt I was tactful about it).
By late Summer 2006, I understand that people wanted to know who Bree really was (or if she was really "real" at all). There was plenty of speculation on the topic, and it dominated many threads on the phorum. Ultimately, a team of phans (the phorum 3) worked to create an online trap to determine her IP address (and her location).
When all was said and done, this investigation led to the 3 individuals we know as the Creators. No harm, no foul beyond a simple "Gotcha!"
However, let's play "what if?" for a second, and assume that we're living an alternate reality where Bree was real. The phorum 3 sets the trap, and what they find is an IP address in Anchor Cove, California. What happens next? If that IP led to a physical address, do they visit it? Do they try to talk to her? Where does it cross from curiosity into stalking if and when a real person is involved?
If Bree really were a 16 year old girl, what then?
Furthermore, we can only speak for our own intentions. Ask most people why such information of Bree's real identity mattered to them, and they say "I just wanted to know." What if one of the people who had been trying to track her down was a convicted sex offender? I'm not saying that anyone involved is a sex offender, but rather that I am a little bothered to hear people talk about this investigation so often without acknowledging the terrible situation and ethical dilemma that would have arisen if Bree had turned out to be real.
That's my entire issue.
I know I brought this up when Nikki B was revealed, and really, my concerns are entirely about the "what if?" aspects. And because the Cove is where the old school fans congregate (and the real investigating into such issues takes place), I unfairly cast those concerns onto all of you.
I am sorry if my statements to that end have come across as accusing any Cove members of "stalker/pedophile" actions, and I hope you can accept my apology.
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Post by curiousgeorge on Mar 19, 2007 6:24:05 GMT -5
Thanks Glenn! Although I don't completely agree with all of your explanation, or some of your other actions, I appreciate your willingness to explain yourself.
I asked you a long time ago to contribute here and I wish that you would have taken me up on it. I think you would have found support a lot sooner if you would have been up front with us instead of posting anonymously... Even if the comments were in disagreement.
Good luck with this mess, I think the tide is turning though.
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Post by Terryfic on Mar 19, 2007 7:09:47 GMT -5
I will agree that the helping people with the ARG really isn’t that big of a deal and I was never bothered by it. I don’t believe this activity is incredibly common in ARGs or at least not those run by people I have spoken with. I think it is more the fact that Glenn was trying to do one on his own and his lack of experience showing, if anything. I was bother greatly by the idea that he was manipulating women into sexual debasing themselves because he had the power to do so. I think it is wrong when rockstars do it and it would have been wrong for Glenn to do it. If it turns out that this never happened then I think the ‘scandal’ was blown out of proportion.
This, nor Glenn’s reply in this thread, has really changed my opinion of him based on his other actions – such as his constant sock puppetry. He, by name, attacked me – the person who willful withdrew from the original IP tracking as I felt it was using tactics, although noble in intention, which might have been inappropriate – although this might have been because I was attacking his ARG and he felt he had to defend it. Personally, I think it is foolish to withhold information constantly on a ‘what if someone uses it to do evil’ argument.
I will conclude with a total disagreement that Glenn has contributed positively to the LG story from my perspective. He has a lot of phans so clearly his work is commercial and I can see why MGM would want to include it in LG to try to make it more mainstream and profitable. But I think it is clear that Glenn’s influence is not the same French New Wave auteur’s that I hold so dear and whose influence is quite clear in some of Mesh’s work. Glenn might make the show profitable; Mesh (if left alone) might have made it memorable
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Post by milowent on Mar 19, 2007 8:12:10 GMT -5
Glenn, thanks for your post. And for the apology.
I think Glenn's views are subconsciously influenced by his close connection to the Creators. I doubt the Creators ever talk about the fact that people were legitimately concerned that lg15 was a marketing ploy promoting some unknown cause, like scientology or something. That was one of the main concerns driving the Phorum 3. I never thought Bree was legitimately a 16 year old girl doing this on her own. And some people did try to physically locate the residence of Jessica Rose once she was identified, which I didn't agree with.
If Bree was real, yes, ethical dilemma. But that was a farce for people to believe. And if Bree was a front for Heaven's Gate luring kids to commit suicide on October 12, ethical victory.
But this is all old history now. The history of lg15 is a history of how the internet can be used and misused. What happened last week to Glenn is how misuse has gotten WAY out of hand. I didn't feel comfortable staying silent once I reached that conclusion.
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Post by hyemew on Mar 19, 2007 9:24:23 GMT -5
Yes terry, I used to blame Glenn for the direction of the series too. However I think we need to consider who really is responsible for what. It's hard to know, but after looking over all the vidplay credits (who wrote the script) it makes me wonder if Glenn's influence might have been more positive than we thought. I think it's pretty clear to us that Miles is the ring-leader and Greg seems to agree with him. Mesh we could tell has been marginalized in the decision-making process and basically has taken a backseat to the whole thing. If Glenn, Mesh, and Greg were all of one mind on this, I think we wouldn't be seeing the twenty-different-Brees phenomenon because they'd all want to write her as action adventure.
And while at first I did think it was Glenn who emphasized the action adventure, there's no doubt that Greg and Miles have been entranced by the word ARG. They spout it and its importance to the series as a central figure off at every turn, despite the fact that is pretty much not backed up by the facts. We know Miles isn't a small-picture guy and totally lacks the Meshyness that endeared us to the early story. Yet in episodes where Mesh has no writing, sometimes there are some good things which came through which very well might have been Glenn's doing. Like think of how we despised early Jonas, he was a totally stupid character and I hated him. However after awhile Glenn started being a main writer of Jonas according to the vidplays and there's no doubt that he's taken a turn for the likeable and some more depth has been added.
I won't keep writing but go look over the vidplays and consider who might be responsible for what, and also the harder-to-gauge aspect of what might have happened if it was just Miles writing all along (while keeping in mind if the Creators do vote on all decisions, it's clear Greg-Miles would beat out Mesh every time. Miles sure looks like a control freak to me so I can't imagine Glenn getting to autonomously take the show down this path which we don't like and feel he has.)
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Post by milowent on Mar 19, 2007 9:35:31 GMT -5
lonelygirl15.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7570i noticed the creators posted something this morning in a phorum thread, the thread that started as a muddled mishmash of removed posts i think about the most salacious allegations. ------- Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:20 am (ET) We ask that you please do not discuss these issues or make claims about Glenn based on conjecture. Please respect us while we gather information and come to a decision. We will be posting a formal statement as soon as possible. I'm going to lock this thread. Thanks! ---- What info are they gathering? In personnel matters, an employer is wise to act quickly. The creators first post about glenn being removed as PM last week is now gone from the phorum. That suggests they realize the claims are unfounded, frankly.
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Post by Terryfic on Mar 19, 2007 9:45:19 GMT -5
Oh don’t get me wrong, I hold Miles to blame for the direction the show has gone and as the reason why the show is as bad as it is. But I have looked at the vidplays and the directing credits and I’m not really interested in Glenn’s work. I will repeat again I don’t think Glenn is the reason that LG has gotten bad, it started down that road before he ever appeared, but that doesn’t change my opinion of his work (be it on LG or OA), where as I have seen work by Mesh (early, and the odd later, LG episodes and his film) which I thought did show promise.
I am getting way off topic. But I would say that Glenn as well as the CiW author had a very serious negative effect on LG by attracting a vocal fanbase whom have likely effected the direction that the show has gone, but that theory is so speculative that it isn’t really worth discussing.
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Smashing
Very Very Sr. Cove Sleuther
All you need is love...and high speed internet.
Posts: 454
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Post by Smashing on Mar 19, 2007 10:22:27 GMT -5
I was bother greatly by the idea that he was manipulating women into sexual debasing themselves because he had the power to do so. I think it is wrong when rockstars do it and it would have been wrong for Glenn to do it. If it turns out that this never happened then I think the ‘scandal’ was blown out of proportion. I disagree with this premise even as a hypothetical. I think it's "blowing it out of proportion" to even characterize the allegations this way, let alone jump to conclusions. I don't see what power Glenn had over anyone. He had the answer to a friggin' puzzle. I don't care what he allegedly asked anyone to do. If they didn't want to do it, they didn't have to. You can call it inappropriate, but manipulating would mean against their will. I'm not surprised that the phorum is locking threads if this is the direction of the discussion. As for Glenn's work, I think it's a non-issue. As for the pedophile/stalker thing, I didn't read the original comments but I would like to answer the question seriously. We don't have to ask "what if?" because we have plenty of real world examples. Take any one of the many real girls videoblogging on YouTube. There is not a group investigation into whether or not they are real, because there is no doubt that they are real. It was the doubt Bree was real, coupled with a forum that even in this alternate universe was authorized by her (Danielbeast said he registered the domain) that created the interest, not a desire for the girl. In other words, if Bree were real, there wouldn't have been a hunt. If I'm wrong, there would be message boards dedicated to tracking down real vloggers. There aren't.
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Post by milowent on Mar 19, 2007 10:25:09 GMT -5
well, i don't think either Glenn or CiW intended the ARGS to became central to lg15, though. i don't see how that can ever work. anyone up for a pro-glenn avatar for the cove or phorum? cove size: and maybe one even terry can subscribe to:
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Smashing
Very Very Sr. Cove Sleuther
All you need is love...and high speed internet.
Posts: 454
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Post by Smashing on Mar 19, 2007 10:29:26 GMT -5
Milo, I appreciate your enthusiam as usual, but don't you think Glenn's role on the show should be determined by the creators and the facts, not by a fan referendum?
edit to add: with input from Glenn himself, of course.
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Post by milowent on Mar 19, 2007 10:34:46 GMT -5
Milo, I appreciate your enthusiam as usual, but don't you think Glenn's role on the show should be determined by the creators and the facts, not by a fan referendum? edit to add: with input from Glenn himself, of course. i think its the creators show. i also think the creators have the final say on the allegations made against him. that's an employment matter, but they have not squelched debate, however, as they did with jsmith's firing. So the allegations have spun out of control in the meantime. In terms of whether Glenn has value to lg15, i definitely think fans should have input into that. If not, its quite likely Yousef would have been canned by now.
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Post by hyemew on Mar 19, 2007 10:39:00 GMT -5
I was bother greatly by the idea that he was manipulating women into sexual debasing themselves because he had the power to do so. I think it is wrong when rockstars do it and it would have been wrong for Glenn to do it. If it turns out that this never happened then I think the ‘scandal’ was blown out of proportion. Terry I have to disagree with you here. All the evidence is out there. It seems to me there was only one chat log, it was posted at the opaphid site, and in fact I feel that the person Glenn was talking to was being even more inappropriate. She was clearly out of control, and was the one who offered up the porn herself. So it wasn't Glenn soliciting, it was essentially her offering after a lot of reckless behavior. His answer in the log was not a definite yes but more of a "you were the one that offered...", resulting in what was of course not a no either and she ended up sending to him after he posted the shill PUBLICALLY (which destroys my former assertion of cheats-for-porn. This clearly destroys the notion of a porn ring because he gave the answer out to all. Based on the craziness of last week I had assumed he was trading individual answers to isolated girls individually for porn, but in fact it was just one case in which the girl made the offer and resulted in a public posting of the shill.) On top of that he did do some dirty talking with people in the forum, but it was not in the context of the ARG. It was between consenting adults and not a part of the game. As we know from his name covedweller, he registered that back in September before OpAphid before it was even a game or part of the series. Because of these events he's off the ARG, but I don't see what this has to do with his ability to contribute as a writer to the series. I mean really, do the Creators have the rights to Tachyon, et al.? Because that is Glenn's creative license, and unless he's already signed them away as a part of the canonization deal, things could be left in real limbo here. I mean from everything we can find it seems like what Glenn did is not deserving of a complete firing, and yet Creators have remained mum and have quietly allowed rumors that he is completely fired to surface. I've heard them myself. If he is fired for what he has done, in a way doesn't it seem like that's an easy way to just dump him but keep his characters as they build up this new almighty ARG they love so much? We know what a control-freak Miles is and how his relationship with absolutely everyone involved with this project in some major capacity including you have become strained at best. I'm sure Miles wouldn't mind having Glenn's characters without Glenn- that just gives him more control over the entire process. I just don't know, but it all seems a little suspicious.
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Smashing
Very Very Sr. Cove Sleuther
All you need is love...and high speed internet.
Posts: 454
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Post by Smashing on Mar 19, 2007 10:43:50 GMT -5
In terms of whether Glenn has value to lg15, i definitely think fans should have input into that. If not, its quite likely Yousef would have been canned by now. If you believe the creators anyway, they claim there was never any intention of firing Yousef and that it was just a misunderstanding. Regardless, I see the "Save Yousef" campaign as different from this matter with Glenn because there were never any allegations of conduct unbecoming an LG officer and gentleman with Yousef. I want Glenn to get a fair hearing and not be railroaded. But I'm not ready to say "save him!" incase there's stuff the creators know that I don't. edit to add: We know what a control-freak Miles is and how his relationship with absolutely everyone involved with this project in some major capacity including you have become strained at best. Oh, we know this, huh? Jesus, people. You'd think you guys were hanging out on the set. I don't think you know what the heck you're talking about and you have all these ideas built up in your minds about who these people are, when last time I checked you don't know any of them personally.
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