|
Post by Tempestarii on Sept 6, 2006 17:39:03 GMT -5
I am in no way saying they have taken reference from this book or are basing anything on it. It is one of my favourites and *bloody hell* how similar... (Note beforehand: The Sephiroth have long been a Kabbalistic term and are frequently used and ritualised in the Thelema. Crowley himself wrote a piece entitled Sepher Sephiroth) "Foucault's Pendulum is divided into ten segments represented by the ten Sefiroth. Told in the form of a kind of satirical intellectual game, three friends create a fictitious plan (the "Plan") that stretches throughout history and combines elements from various conspiracy theories. They feed the plan into a computer that in turn helps them formulate a new conspiracy theory, which is then believed to be true by adherents of the previous conspiracies, leading to disastrous consequences." The wikipedia link is here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foucault's_Pendulum_(book) and I highly highly advocate any conspiracy fan and especially occultists to read it. It is a stunning piece of the power of misinformation, blurry occult references and linking them to one faith.
|
|
mettle
Anchor Cove Citizen of Note
Obey Bree!
Posts: 100
|
Post by mettle on Sept 7, 2006 0:50:10 GMT -5
If anyone is curious about the etymology of sephiroth and sepher (as i assume an Eco fan would be), sepher is Old Testament Hebrew for book. The plural in Hebrew is sephirim (since it's a masc noun) but the feminine plural would be sephiroth. Book of Books. I am in no way saying they have taken reference from this book or are basing anything on it. It is one of my favourites and *bloody hell* how similar... (Note beforehand: The Sephiroth have long been a Kabbalistic term and are frequently used and ritualised in the Thelema. Crowley himself wrote a piece entitled Sepher Sephiroth) "Foucault's Pendulum is divided into ten segments represented by the ten Sefiroth. Told in the form of a kind of satirical intellectual game, three friends create a fictitious plan (the "Plan") that stretches throughout history and combines elements from various conspiracy theories. They feed the plan into a computer that in turn helps them formulate a new conspiracy theory, which is then believed to be true by adherents of the previous conspiracies, leading to disastrous consequences." The wikipedia link is here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foucault's_Pendulum_(book) and I highly highly advocate any conspiracy fan and especially occultists to read it. It is a stunning piece of the power of misinformation, blurry occult references and linking them to one faith.
|
|
|
Post by dharmabum420 on Sept 14, 2006 3:08:54 GMT -5
Foucault's Pendulum is one of my favourite novels of all time (and karma to you for being a fan), but I think there's little similarity between the novel and the LG15 hints about cults and Crowleyism.
The protagonists of FC are essentially atheists who are derisive of the entire cult scene, only to meet disastrous results. These results aren't because they're unbelievers, but because they underestimate the fervor of those who adhere to these cults. The novel is beautifully researched and accurate in its portrayals of the histories of various cults and occult belielfs.
LG15 has a much more Hollywood perception about the cults. Crowley's image and the cheesy candalabra, which would make a 15 year old Wicca kid (a follower of a much simpler system than any Crowleyite) shudder in its simplicity (a picture and a candalabra? where's the paten, the athame?) is pure fiction which isn't based on research. I mean, "Ghoulies", an absolutely awful mid-80's horror flick which tried to capitalize on the "Gremlins" craze, at least seemed to have some awareness of "Goetia".
I guess I'm just trying to say, while I'm an LG15 fan and look forward to the storyline's development, their conception of occult religions seems even less grounded than "The Craft", which at least got the calling of the watchtowers pretty accurate. It's an insult to Eco to compare his detailed and accurate research to the superficial stuff we're seeing from the LG15 creators.
|
|
|
Post by VanillaFlava on Sept 14, 2006 5:22:10 GMT -5
Oh feel the Karma flowing fellow Eco enthusiasts! Foucault's Pendulum is my all-time favourite novel, not only for the reasons meantioned by Temp, but simply because Eco is such a consumate scholar and skilled writer, that this novel excels on many different levels, the historic, the occult, the sociological while never failing to entertain.
It was always funny to me how DaVinci code got such much publicity, when it is pretty much inaccurate, predictable, populist dreck compared to Eco's work.
I also don't see many parallels. The LG15 treatment of these subjects is shallow at best, annoying at it's worst. They could have done much better. While I guess this treatment might have been fine for a casual TV audience, an Internet audience has many more resources at it's disposable, and I wager is also more demanding in meaningful treatment of controversial topics.
|
|
|
Post by curiousgeorge on Sept 14, 2006 6:05:03 GMT -5
I think we are expecting too much of the creators at this point. Althought they appeared to be very clever at first, it's obvious that they did not do their homework when they ventured into this area of the plotline. I guess this is to be expected given what the target YT demographic is, especially with the first videos.
I seriously doubt that they expected this kind of scrutiny of the actual facts behind the occult references they throw out like tidbits. I also doubt that they really care (sigh) about the demographic that is reading and posting to this kind of thread. This is not exactly "The Name of the (Jessica) Rose" now is it!
OT: What this does do is inspire me that a new generation of creative types will leverage the power of the web and cheap equipment to create content that WOULD live up to higher intellectual standards and scrutiny. LG15 may indeed be a, albeit clumsy, pioneer. I bet film students across the world will be inspired by this project, including smart ones!
|
|
|
Post by foolslovehermits on Sept 14, 2006 17:21:22 GMT -5
I think we are expecting too much of the creators at this point. Althought they appeared to be very clever at first, it's obvious that they did not do their homework when they ventured into this area of the plotline. I guess this is to be expected given what the target YT demographic is, especially with the first videos. I seriously doubt that they expected this kind of scrutiny of the actual facts behind the occult references they throw out like tidbits. I also doubt that they really care (sigh) about the demographic that is reading and posting to this kind of thread. This is not exactly "The Name of the (Jessica) Rose" now is it! I could not agree more. The folks digging around looking for signs and meaning know more about the topics than the creators at this point. Oddly enough, Eco would probably find this amusing and interesting from the perseptive of a semiotician.
|
|
|
Post by Tempestarii on Sept 15, 2006 9:07:07 GMT -5
Dharmabum: Great nickname, fantastic book! I only wish Foucault's Pendulum could be inspiration to a smarter group of people whose ideal is not to make money but simply entertain and get people thinking. From my first comment -> "I am in no way saying they have taken reference from this book or are basing anything on it. " The similarities in my mind are how the inclusion of occult references in LG15 (if you can count that cheap candelabra as an occult reference) has drawn together all sorts of convoluted occult conspiracies. This was especially noticeable on the old forum where I was having a near aneurysm trying to put down whatever facts I knew about the Thelemic work and still a few people convinced themselves that this conspiracy was all-reaching and intentional. Within the book I remember being particularly taken by how every slight piece of information somehow became part of the hidden agenda, much the same imo with Valis by Philip K. Dick. That atmosphere where people feed into their own fears of conspiracy, and try to match everything to a personal cosmology...that reminded me of Foucault's Pendulum. The creators have definately overplayed the occult theme and came up short, proving to me LG15 is not based on anything so intense as the book. I hope I worded this post to reflect my intentions of mentioning Foucault's Pendulum, and I will offer someone's soul to anyone who can make a YT series what it should be Edited to add: Thankyou for the karma, I am actually a closet karmic whore that gets incredibly excited and squealy when it goes a little higher.
|
|
|
Post by dharmabum420 on Sept 16, 2006 16:37:19 GMT -5
You're a fan of Eco, Kerouac and PKD? Be still my heart. It's funny, actually; this whole Cassie thing has made me think of FP anew. Now we have all these "diabolicals" on the old message board feeding reams and reams of random information into this massive conspiracy around the Cassie video; theories about gamejacked ARGs, is YouTube Cassie legit, is MySpace Cassie a fraud. I've seen mods like HyeMew accused of being part of a grand conspiracy to cover up the truth about Cassie, dodgy-looking videos of people spying on people claiming they've unearthed the bag, tarot cards, cannibalism, trails of notes... it goes on and on. Maybe another Eco fan read this thread and decided to have a little bit of fun.
|
|
syncomm
Anchor Cove Resident
Posts: 28
|
Post by syncomm on Sept 18, 2006 13:44:53 GMT -5
Foucault's Pendulum is an excellent book, I rarely hear people mention it so I am excited to see it referenced here on the boards! Of note, Umberto Eco is also a professor of Semiotics ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiotics ) which is the study of symbolism. There are a number of good resources out there on the topic, but Eco's non-fiction book "The Role of the Reader" gives some awesome insight. He attempts in his fiction writing to craft books where the reader plays some role in interpreting the symbolism and themes contained therein. Many people walk away from his books with different outlooks on the underlying meanings. I immediately thought of this when watching LG15 and reading the posts about it. Many people see symbolism in each of the videos which spawn intense and interesting investigation. Each viewer plays a role and comes away with entirely different results. We basically learn something about ourselves along the way! This is really an interesting medium and I have to hand it to the creators of the series for doing something kewl with it. I have no idea if they got the idea from Eco's works or not, but it is still nice to see it play out the way it has. BTW - If you are reading this thread and have no idea who Umberto Eco is, you may be familiar with "The Name of the Rose" which is one of his other novels that became a Hollywood feature. If you decide to read the book the movie was based on -- you may want to pick up the "companion guide" as there is a bit of Latin and Italian mixed into the text. Cheers, syncomm
|
|
|
Post by Tempestarii on Sept 19, 2006 19:17:44 GMT -5
You're a fan of Eco, Kerouac and PKD? Be still my heart. Those authors give me the feeling of Christmas eve/morning that I miss from childhood. The twelve seconds during unwrapping of the present when you catch a glimpse of this intense mystery....just the corner. Though unlike unwrapping presents you are never given the full image. A major reason why I adore Rimbaud and Christina Rossetti is I find they offer the same glimpses into the blurred line between sanity and insanity, macrocosm and microcosm, as does Phillip K. Dick, Eco, Kerouac, even Jim Morrison's poetry. (The End being particularly marvellous with merging the symbols from various cultures without watering them down imo) P.S. Tell me you like Frank Herbert and I shall force you to marry me Syncomm, in response to your comment I had the exact same feeling with Eco and as a child I was in palpatations of delight when I found my father's books showing the Tree of Life and noticed each chapter heading. And with each new reading of the book I change my opinion on the meanings, grrr! This is where LG15 falls short for me, and I know I have probably been so dull in my constant moaning since the Crowley thing but the creators overt symbol to construe the occult was childish and bland at best... Yes, he was all for any publicity, and would die of amusement over the personal power being poured into this belief structure of Bree but where is the mystery? Where is the riddle of the occult? As I see it only the landscape, lighting and timing has given us the joy of picking this apart and that was not intended. And as for the Cassie videos, they were so dark I perked up and really wanted it to take a sudden twist. Such a shame they are not affiliated because I bloody well enjoyed those.
|
|
syncomm
Anchor Cove Resident
Posts: 28
|
Post by syncomm on Sept 20, 2006 10:13:27 GMT -5
P.S. Tell me you like Frank Herbert and I shall force you to marry me Lol, I have a feeling that the people in this thread have a lot of the same tastes. Along with PKD, Herbert (just Frank, not his son's works), and Kerouac I would even toss in Sophie's World and Dan Simmons' novels. I really enjoy books which make you reflect on life and meaning as well as provide solid entertainment. BTW - If you are into beat poetry, you should pick up "Big Sky Mind" This is where LG15 falls short for me, and I know I have probably been so dull in my constant moaning since the Crowley thing but the creators overt symbol to construe the occult was childish and bland at best... Yes, I still contemplate the point there. In another thread I noted that this may just be a reference at Bree's rebellion. Even "not lighting the candles" could have been symbolic of her not yet being ready to break free of her parent's control and world view. It was also discussed fairly heavily on another board that Thelemites don't usually have shrines to Crowley himself, they typically put the Steele of Revealing in one instead. I still have yet to ascertain where they are headed with the ceremony angle though (and the "injection" -- which is just weird!) I'm excited to see how it all unfolds... and where is Daniel now??
|
|
|
Post by johnnypanic13 on Sept 20, 2006 10:16:38 GMT -5
P.S. Tell me you like Frank Herbert and I shall force you to marry me Lol, I have a feeling that the people in this thread have a lot of the same tastes. Along with PKD, Herbert (just Frank, not his son's works), and Kerouac I would even toss in Sophie's World and Dan Simmons' novels. I really enjoy books which make you reflect on life and meaning as well as provide solid entertainment. BTW - If you are into beat poetry, you should pick up "Big Sky Mind" I knew there was a reason that people on this board appeal to me so much, you've all got good taste!
|
|
|
Post by dharmabum420 on Sept 20, 2006 15:42:06 GMT -5
P.S. Tell me you like Frank Herbert and I shall force you to marry me Heh, I am a Herbert fan as well (although not as much as the previously mentioned authors), and I'm a pretty big Morrison fan to boot. I'll let you off the hook by confessing to being a huge Stephen King fan as well. Naysayers be damned, "The Dark Tower" is the "Lord of the Rings" of the 21st century. BTW - If you are into beat poetry, you should pick up "Big Sky Mind" I picked up "Big Sky Mind" awhile back, but haven't read it yet. I'm also a huge fan of Gary Snyder, who I think is shamefully overlooked at times considering his enormous influence on Kerouac.
|
|
|
Post by Tempestarii on Oct 4, 2006 16:12:05 GMT -5
I recently picked up "In the name of the Rose" due to some comments on this thread. I am about a third of the way through and actually not sure how I feel about it. The idea of a mystery makes me unable to put it down, the descriptions are sublime especially the library which is enough to make a Temp wet herself wanting....but the discourses on if laughter is a sin or sacred! I understand this really throws us into the mindset of such cloistered minds but it goes a little too far for me. I am still unable to put it down but I hope the endless hammering home of their arguments soon ends. But then again I enjoy reading those parts! ACK, I am utterly unable to make up my mind.
|
|
|
Post by dharmabum420 on Oct 4, 2006 16:35:30 GMT -5
I probably love "Name of the Rose" even more than FP. I love its structure; he modeled it on 17-18th century opera, with plot-driving recitatives punctuated by stunning linguistic arias (the early description of the door of the church, for example).
Issue such as Christ's laughter were serious business to these kind of people back then. I can promise you this much; Eco included little in the book which, by the end, you'll find extraneous.
It's worth noting that Eco has stated that he wrote the first 100 pages of the book intentionally full of obscure history about such things to deter the reader he considered unworthy. You've made it past that point, stick with it; I'll wager you won't be disappointed with the end result.
|
|