Post by Alissa Brooke on Sept 5, 2006 12:06:21 GMT -5
Lonelygirl15's Religion Quicksheet.
What we know
- Bree is not of a mainstream religion (Christian/Catholic, Jewish, etc.)
- Bree was a counselor at her religious summer camp.
- Bree has a Crowley picture in her bedroom, which is shown on the wall above a three pronged candle stick, which did not appear until "Daniel Returns"
- Bree and her parents believe in evolution
- Bree has been chosen ((and is honored)) to participate in a ceremony which requires memorization of text, dieting, special exercises, and even her parents can not attend. It also occurs "once in a really long while" ((from blackjack))
- October 12 is alluded to in the cookie post (score: 10-12-06) which is Crowley's birthday. (from mettle)
Speculations (Read: quotes taken by members who posted on the Lonelygirl15.com board))
"I'm looked through some of the evidence below about what Bree's religion might be (not including the Crowley stuff.) She mentions a "purity bond" with her parents.
Who can find out what a "purity bond" is and what relgion(s) use it? It's not something you can find in google."
-Milowent
"I figured you guys could use some pointers, because there's some seriously mis-guided, or uninformed conjecture going on. Most likely the cause of it is that most folks hear "Crowley" and they think of "Satanism" or some other silliness. Crowley didn't worship Satan, nor did, or does, the OTO, that's just freaked out Christians who assume that people who worship in unusual ways (to them) are "weird" or "evil" or whatever. Many, if not all, american christians seem quite uninformed on the many diverse branches of faith (including their own) around the world (I hear Catholics believe they are drinking blood, and eating flesh of God, at their church! ;-) ). Anyways, on to some points:
1. The Crowley image isn't really a portrair of Crowley, so much as it's a pic of Crowley, posing as a Tarot card. In specific, the Magician card. The Magician is usually holding a wand, and in front of him on the table lie the other suits that make up a deck of cards: Pentacles/Diamonds, Swords/Spades, Cups/Hearts, Wands/Clubs, and the modern versions of the Magician usually have a helm/halo of an infinity sign, representing the knowledge of the divine. If you have a Tarot deck, check it out... heck, if you have *any* deck of generic playing cards you can check out the suits.
2. The LG15 image, quite oddly, *masks* off this majorly important (the suits) part of that image's symbolism. Are her parents hard-core christian gnostics, who appreciate the modern revival of Gnosticism, but don't like the trappings of card-magic that Crowley adhered to? I mean, the dude is *clearly* wearing a crucifix in the image.
3. The snide 'summer camp' references... yes, many faiths have religious summer camps. Christian gnostic polytheists, wiccans, neo-pagans, UU, IOT, OTO, and HOGD are no different.
4. Crowley influenced an extremely large revival in faiths, spanning a great deal of creeds. Some folks seem to want to focus on OTO & Thelema, but Crowley is also a patriarcial figure to The Golden Dawn, as well as modern Gnostics, A.'.A.'., and the IOT.
5. LG15's religious background, as far as it seeps into her interests, doesn't point to a cult, it points to an anti-cult. She idolizes Feynman, who rejected silly superstition in faith, but worshipped at the altar of the divine unknown. She parodies junk-science ideas (as Feynman and Crowley often did), while exploring ideas based on junk science at the same time (as Feynman and Crowley often did).
From my perspective, I'd guess she's being home schooled to keep her out of the kind of mass ignorance perpetuated on YouTube and these forums, to prevent her from being indoctrinated into the simplistic, shallow, kind of thinking that people are "good" or "evil" based on whatever some guy in robes tells you to believe."
-ronabop
"I'm still under the impression that she's a pagan. I'm not sure which tradition however. But no matter what tradition pagans usually write their own ceremonies and rituals, perhaps this purity bond was one such ceremony her parents wrote and that's why no one can find any evidence of it on the net..."
-oxdeltaxo
"I think we all have an idea of what kind of religion she may be into. Here's the thing- how many of us, upon never hearing of Aleistar Crowley, have looked him up on google or wikki after the LG Crowley shrine surfaced. Don't you think this could be exactly what the people who masterminded the project intended for us to do? We've been undeniably exposed to something at thier discretion, and the rest has, so far, been in our own hands- to look up the facts, to get an education about Crowley and Thelma to try to understand what's going on here. The way we're hanging on every video trying to understand this dark twist and, upon waiting for a video release, are doing things in the meantime like looking up information about Crowley. This is what they wanted, in my opinion, and it is genius. Who would think to peddle something like religion in such a creative way? It's creepy as anything,though, and I'm actually afraid that we are, in one way or another, complete puppets for the LG producers.
I feel so used! Yuck. "
-outlaww
"Adding the Crowley image was sneaky and inspired as it is not such an overt symbol as Baphomet but just occultically (is that a word? lol) tantalising enough to make people wonder. Also even Thelemites speak of Crowley as a grand fraud, the original spin artist and I love the inclusion even more.
The man wrote a book called The Book of Lies and asked people not to believe all they saw/read, etc. The whole 'Great Beast 666' was propogated by himself to get publicity from the press. I am sure the old goat would be very proud, lol.
Though I doubt strongly her family or herself are followers of the man, or this is marketing to push the doctrines for these reasons, I would post more but I am rather hungover today, hehe.
1) If it is meant to be an 'altar' as suggested with Bree's aversion to her friend lighting the candles, it simply is not a Thelemic, OTO, A.:A.: altar. It strikes me as a Hollywood version...'slap a picture up and some candles and lets hope people assume it is the dreaded occult.'
2) As far as my knowledge goes no child of a member is restricted from behaving like a normal child. In fact hedonism in healthy doses is seen as positively normal and teenage behaviour.
3) Crowleyite organisations have no desire at all to include teens in their ranks, it is a very strict set of systems that preaches knowledge and wisdom instead of haphazardly joining for assumed power or mystique."
-Tempestarii
"Assessment:
The religion is not "Humanism" (which is not a religion at all, but a non-religious world view whose adherents occasionally organize into mutual support and information shareing groups).
It is not based on Crowley or any of the Brit mystics, despite the supposed "shrine". The identification of the wall picture may be an error. If accurate, it may be present as artful or playful misdirection. In the latter case, while the simple presence of the icon may be acceptable, dignifying it with lighted candles might be of concern to someone committed to another belief.
The "person" who inspires the religion is a prophet, not a deity, but not Muhammed.
It is conceivably Bhudda, or a teacher from the Hindu or other Indian tradition. The religion could be, according to the information available, Lamaist Bhuddism. Shikkism is another possibility, as is Shinto.
In fact, the narrowness of the range of possibilities (roughly two) considered in this thread is quite distressingly disappointing. It shows a singularily narrow and poorly informed vision of the variety of religious belief in this world, a peculiar ignorance which "Bree" emphatically and correctly protests against in her discussion with Daniel.
In another possibility the teacher or prophet would have lived during the last two centuries. His place of birth is an object of honor, but the building has been destroyed by adherents of the local dominant religion in a fit of intolerance. The religion of his followers is worldwide, but total membership is small. Adherents are morally rigorous, well educated, and partial to scientific and literary knowledge. Following Bree's example I will not name the faith.
Keep thinking, but more importantly, keep looking. Evidence first, always."
-JimPIvonka
"Thanks for the screenie, JS, it does show that the candles have been at least momentarily lit at some time, though not for any length of time judging by my knowledge of tapers. I did say, however, "the candles in the candelabra haven't been lit since she started vlogging." That's all I meant. But I could still be wrong...but I'm sick of watching those vids for now, so I'm not going to check atm.
JimPlvonka, maybe you are cryptically referring to Baha'i? I see no need to hide the religious group's name if it's simply a guess. But Baha'i doesn't strike me as so little-known that she couldn't mention it, but who knows. It does essentially fit, but I have no idea regarding the destruction of a building or sacred place. But then I know very little about it. Gah, the Aetherius Society could be a possiblity from what I've seen."
-Sunbean
"Interesting notes on Baha'i and science:
"The Bahá'í Faith teaches that properly appreciated, science and religion will never conflict, as each are complementary ways of explaining truth, which on any issue must necessarily be singular." The harmony of science and religion is a central tenet of the Bahá'í teachings. The principle states that that truth is one, and therefore true science and true religion must be in harmony, thus rejecting the view that science and religion are in conflict.
Baha'i and evolution ("We believe in evolution!" -Bree)
"In regards to evolution and the origin of man, `Abdu'l-Bahá gave extensive comments on the subject when he addressed western audiences in the first two decades of the 20th century. These published talks can be found in Some Answered Questions, Paris Talks and the Promulgation of Universal Peace. `Abdu'l-Bahá describes the human species as coming into being through a developmental process – that Mehanian and Friberg[16] argue is consistent with scientific evolution – and that the developmental process is working out of a divine creative impulse.
A fundamental part of `Abdul-Bahá's teachings on evolution is the belief that all life came from the same origin: "the origin of all material life is one...". He states that from this sole origin, the complete diversity of life was generated: "Consider the world of created beings, how varied and diverse they are in species, yet with one sole origin". He explained that a slow, gradual process led to the development of complex entities."
-HyeMew
"I'll try and order my points enough so I am not rambling
1) These groups are against involving children or under 18 year olds. My own father was a previous Crowley follower and the whole mindset of the groups is strict proof of maturity and a willingness for very firm tests on that and ability to pass on in the grades. This is set in place because Thelemites know it can be a dangerous path and wish adults to 'prove' themselves before joining.
2) Crowley is not revered like a Saint or idolised. Crowley is more the enfant terrible of the whole system and the majority dislike the bad name he bought to it whilst admiring his academia. Hence a Crowley follower would be someone who admires his work on Western mysticism but tends to dislike the man.
3) A shrine would be in a room set *away* from living quarters and would take up a whole room. This is the Thelemic Temple. You could expect to find gaudily painted swords, two pillars, altar cloths enscribed with planetary markings, and other pompous paraphernalia.
4) The OTO, A.:.A.:. would DEFINATELY NEVER advise members to ban their kids from dating. The system(s) do not believe in passing laws on restriction to the degree that their personal lives are very much like hippies.
5) Contrary to popular belief (which Bree has traded on) Thelemic magic is very mired in Christianity. The majority of rituals are calling on Angels, and the Demonic ones call on Demons to subject to the Magician in YHVH (Jehovah's) name. The LBRP ritual for example is the Lords prayer intertwined with invoking the Four Archangels. So Bree's parents would be Gnostic Christian Magicians.
6) Not even the Thelemic Temple would have three candles. Candles are not used as the modern Wiccans do and Thelemites do not follow the Christian Trinity idea. Candles are not used in a shrine but on the outside of the room to mark where the people must stand.
That is all I can think of for now, lol."
-Tempestarii
"If there was a different picture there at the beginning, I think we have to undo this idea that picture + candles = shrine. Just because one is next to the other does not mean they are a set.
Now what has me boggled more tan anything is why a girl like that would have a framed picture of Crowley in her room. If she were a goth girl, which correct me if I'm wrong, she isn't, then you'd go oh okay well that makes enough sense, just as if it were Marilyn Manson. But it could be that by having a picture of Crowley, that's her own offbeat way of being rebellious.
Another curiousity: If you wanted a portrait of Crowley, where would you go to get one? Print it off the internet? Hot Topic? Or do they pass them out at summer camp?"
-perplexed
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If anyone has anything else to add, feel free, and I shall edit the post! If you said something relevant on the old board that I missed and was not a repeat of the above quotes, please PM me and link to the message--
--Going though all those posts makes my head swim. <3
What we know
- Bree is not of a mainstream religion (Christian/Catholic, Jewish, etc.)
- Bree was a counselor at her religious summer camp.
- Bree has a Crowley picture in her bedroom, which is shown on the wall above a three pronged candle stick, which did not appear until "Daniel Returns"
- Bree and her parents believe in evolution
- Bree has been chosen ((and is honored)) to participate in a ceremony which requires memorization of text, dieting, special exercises, and even her parents can not attend. It also occurs "once in a really long while" ((from blackjack))
- October 12 is alluded to in the cookie post (score: 10-12-06) which is Crowley's birthday. (from mettle)
Speculations (Read: quotes taken by members who posted on the Lonelygirl15.com board))
"I'm looked through some of the evidence below about what Bree's religion might be (not including the Crowley stuff.) She mentions a "purity bond" with her parents.
Who can find out what a "purity bond" is and what relgion(s) use it? It's not something you can find in google."
-Milowent
"I figured you guys could use some pointers, because there's some seriously mis-guided, or uninformed conjecture going on. Most likely the cause of it is that most folks hear "Crowley" and they think of "Satanism" or some other silliness. Crowley didn't worship Satan, nor did, or does, the OTO, that's just freaked out Christians who assume that people who worship in unusual ways (to them) are "weird" or "evil" or whatever. Many, if not all, american christians seem quite uninformed on the many diverse branches of faith (including their own) around the world (I hear Catholics believe they are drinking blood, and eating flesh of God, at their church! ;-) ). Anyways, on to some points:
1. The Crowley image isn't really a portrair of Crowley, so much as it's a pic of Crowley, posing as a Tarot card. In specific, the Magician card. The Magician is usually holding a wand, and in front of him on the table lie the other suits that make up a deck of cards: Pentacles/Diamonds, Swords/Spades, Cups/Hearts, Wands/Clubs, and the modern versions of the Magician usually have a helm/halo of an infinity sign, representing the knowledge of the divine. If you have a Tarot deck, check it out... heck, if you have *any* deck of generic playing cards you can check out the suits.
2. The LG15 image, quite oddly, *masks* off this majorly important (the suits) part of that image's symbolism. Are her parents hard-core christian gnostics, who appreciate the modern revival of Gnosticism, but don't like the trappings of card-magic that Crowley adhered to? I mean, the dude is *clearly* wearing a crucifix in the image.
3. The snide 'summer camp' references... yes, many faiths have religious summer camps. Christian gnostic polytheists, wiccans, neo-pagans, UU, IOT, OTO, and HOGD are no different.
4. Crowley influenced an extremely large revival in faiths, spanning a great deal of creeds. Some folks seem to want to focus on OTO & Thelema, but Crowley is also a patriarcial figure to The Golden Dawn, as well as modern Gnostics, A.'.A.'., and the IOT.
5. LG15's religious background, as far as it seeps into her interests, doesn't point to a cult, it points to an anti-cult. She idolizes Feynman, who rejected silly superstition in faith, but worshipped at the altar of the divine unknown. She parodies junk-science ideas (as Feynman and Crowley often did), while exploring ideas based on junk science at the same time (as Feynman and Crowley often did).
From my perspective, I'd guess she's being home schooled to keep her out of the kind of mass ignorance perpetuated on YouTube and these forums, to prevent her from being indoctrinated into the simplistic, shallow, kind of thinking that people are "good" or "evil" based on whatever some guy in robes tells you to believe."
-ronabop
"I'm still under the impression that she's a pagan. I'm not sure which tradition however. But no matter what tradition pagans usually write their own ceremonies and rituals, perhaps this purity bond was one such ceremony her parents wrote and that's why no one can find any evidence of it on the net..."
-oxdeltaxo
"I think we all have an idea of what kind of religion she may be into. Here's the thing- how many of us, upon never hearing of Aleistar Crowley, have looked him up on google or wikki after the LG Crowley shrine surfaced. Don't you think this could be exactly what the people who masterminded the project intended for us to do? We've been undeniably exposed to something at thier discretion, and the rest has, so far, been in our own hands- to look up the facts, to get an education about Crowley and Thelma to try to understand what's going on here. The way we're hanging on every video trying to understand this dark twist and, upon waiting for a video release, are doing things in the meantime like looking up information about Crowley. This is what they wanted, in my opinion, and it is genius. Who would think to peddle something like religion in such a creative way? It's creepy as anything,though, and I'm actually afraid that we are, in one way or another, complete puppets for the LG producers.
I feel so used! Yuck. "
-outlaww
"Adding the Crowley image was sneaky and inspired as it is not such an overt symbol as Baphomet but just occultically (is that a word? lol) tantalising enough to make people wonder. Also even Thelemites speak of Crowley as a grand fraud, the original spin artist and I love the inclusion even more.
The man wrote a book called The Book of Lies and asked people not to believe all they saw/read, etc. The whole 'Great Beast 666' was propogated by himself to get publicity from the press. I am sure the old goat would be very proud, lol.
Though I doubt strongly her family or herself are followers of the man, or this is marketing to push the doctrines for these reasons, I would post more but I am rather hungover today, hehe.
1) If it is meant to be an 'altar' as suggested with Bree's aversion to her friend lighting the candles, it simply is not a Thelemic, OTO, A.:A.: altar. It strikes me as a Hollywood version...'slap a picture up and some candles and lets hope people assume it is the dreaded occult.'
2) As far as my knowledge goes no child of a member is restricted from behaving like a normal child. In fact hedonism in healthy doses is seen as positively normal and teenage behaviour.
3) Crowleyite organisations have no desire at all to include teens in their ranks, it is a very strict set of systems that preaches knowledge and wisdom instead of haphazardly joining for assumed power or mystique."
-Tempestarii
"Assessment:
The religion is not "Humanism" (which is not a religion at all, but a non-religious world view whose adherents occasionally organize into mutual support and information shareing groups).
It is not based on Crowley or any of the Brit mystics, despite the supposed "shrine". The identification of the wall picture may be an error. If accurate, it may be present as artful or playful misdirection. In the latter case, while the simple presence of the icon may be acceptable, dignifying it with lighted candles might be of concern to someone committed to another belief.
The "person" who inspires the religion is a prophet, not a deity, but not Muhammed.
It is conceivably Bhudda, or a teacher from the Hindu or other Indian tradition. The religion could be, according to the information available, Lamaist Bhuddism. Shikkism is another possibility, as is Shinto.
In fact, the narrowness of the range of possibilities (roughly two) considered in this thread is quite distressingly disappointing. It shows a singularily narrow and poorly informed vision of the variety of religious belief in this world, a peculiar ignorance which "Bree" emphatically and correctly protests against in her discussion with Daniel.
In another possibility the teacher or prophet would have lived during the last two centuries. His place of birth is an object of honor, but the building has been destroyed by adherents of the local dominant religion in a fit of intolerance. The religion of his followers is worldwide, but total membership is small. Adherents are morally rigorous, well educated, and partial to scientific and literary knowledge. Following Bree's example I will not name the faith.
Keep thinking, but more importantly, keep looking. Evidence first, always."
-JimPIvonka
"Thanks for the screenie, JS, it does show that the candles have been at least momentarily lit at some time, though not for any length of time judging by my knowledge of tapers. I did say, however, "the candles in the candelabra haven't been lit since she started vlogging." That's all I meant. But I could still be wrong...but I'm sick of watching those vids for now, so I'm not going to check atm.
JimPlvonka, maybe you are cryptically referring to Baha'i? I see no need to hide the religious group's name if it's simply a guess. But Baha'i doesn't strike me as so little-known that she couldn't mention it, but who knows. It does essentially fit, but I have no idea regarding the destruction of a building or sacred place. But then I know very little about it. Gah, the Aetherius Society could be a possiblity from what I've seen."
-Sunbean
"Interesting notes on Baha'i and science:
"The Bahá'í Faith teaches that properly appreciated, science and religion will never conflict, as each are complementary ways of explaining truth, which on any issue must necessarily be singular." The harmony of science and religion is a central tenet of the Bahá'í teachings. The principle states that that truth is one, and therefore true science and true religion must be in harmony, thus rejecting the view that science and religion are in conflict.
Baha'i and evolution ("We believe in evolution!" -Bree)
"In regards to evolution and the origin of man, `Abdu'l-Bahá gave extensive comments on the subject when he addressed western audiences in the first two decades of the 20th century. These published talks can be found in Some Answered Questions, Paris Talks and the Promulgation of Universal Peace. `Abdu'l-Bahá describes the human species as coming into being through a developmental process – that Mehanian and Friberg[16] argue is consistent with scientific evolution – and that the developmental process is working out of a divine creative impulse.
A fundamental part of `Abdul-Bahá's teachings on evolution is the belief that all life came from the same origin: "the origin of all material life is one...". He states that from this sole origin, the complete diversity of life was generated: "Consider the world of created beings, how varied and diverse they are in species, yet with one sole origin". He explained that a slow, gradual process led to the development of complex entities."
-HyeMew
"I'll try and order my points enough so I am not rambling
1) These groups are against involving children or under 18 year olds. My own father was a previous Crowley follower and the whole mindset of the groups is strict proof of maturity and a willingness for very firm tests on that and ability to pass on in the grades. This is set in place because Thelemites know it can be a dangerous path and wish adults to 'prove' themselves before joining.
2) Crowley is not revered like a Saint or idolised. Crowley is more the enfant terrible of the whole system and the majority dislike the bad name he bought to it whilst admiring his academia. Hence a Crowley follower would be someone who admires his work on Western mysticism but tends to dislike the man.
3) A shrine would be in a room set *away* from living quarters and would take up a whole room. This is the Thelemic Temple. You could expect to find gaudily painted swords, two pillars, altar cloths enscribed with planetary markings, and other pompous paraphernalia.
4) The OTO, A.:.A.:. would DEFINATELY NEVER advise members to ban their kids from dating. The system(s) do not believe in passing laws on restriction to the degree that their personal lives are very much like hippies.
5) Contrary to popular belief (which Bree has traded on) Thelemic magic is very mired in Christianity. The majority of rituals are calling on Angels, and the Demonic ones call on Demons to subject to the Magician in YHVH (Jehovah's) name. The LBRP ritual for example is the Lords prayer intertwined with invoking the Four Archangels. So Bree's parents would be Gnostic Christian Magicians.
6) Not even the Thelemic Temple would have three candles. Candles are not used as the modern Wiccans do and Thelemites do not follow the Christian Trinity idea. Candles are not used in a shrine but on the outside of the room to mark where the people must stand.
That is all I can think of for now, lol."
-Tempestarii
"If there was a different picture there at the beginning, I think we have to undo this idea that picture + candles = shrine. Just because one is next to the other does not mean they are a set.
Now what has me boggled more tan anything is why a girl like that would have a framed picture of Crowley in her room. If she were a goth girl, which correct me if I'm wrong, she isn't, then you'd go oh okay well that makes enough sense, just as if it were Marilyn Manson. But it could be that by having a picture of Crowley, that's her own offbeat way of being rebellious.
Another curiousity: If you wanted a portrait of Crowley, where would you go to get one? Print it off the internet? Hot Topic? Or do they pass them out at summer camp?"
-perplexed
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If anyone has anything else to add, feel free, and I shall edit the post! If you said something relevant on the old board that I missed and was not a repeat of the above quotes, please PM me and link to the message--
--Going though all those posts makes my head swim. <3